This interview was conducted with Comrade Sudhir Bose, a leading militant of the Bengali Socialist Workers Party (Indian Section of the Fourth International) when he recently passed through London. The Red Mole is pleased to publish it because not much is known about the development of the Fourth Interational in the semi-colonial world. In future issues we will publish news about our comrades in Japan and Bolivia.
What is the political importance of West Bengal in relation to the rest of india? The political importance of West Bengal is very great, but the only way you can appreciate this is if you understand the political and historical background and tradition of this province. For instance during the days of British imperialist rule over our country, it was in Bengal where the terrorist movement and the revolutionary movement was born. If a proper survey were conducted, I think you would find that one family in twelve would be able to boast a martyr who died for the cause of national liberation. They fought bravely against British imperialism and made Bengal the spearhead of the anti-imperialist struggle. That is why Bengal was the part of india which the imperialists disliked and feared the most and that is why they institutionalised a racist discrimination against the Bengalis. They could not trust us to serve in the British Army and in this of course they were right. If the Bengalis had been armed it is possible that a revolutionary leadership would have emerged to lead them.
Yesterday they fought against the British, today they lead the struggle against capitalism itself, that is against the Indian Congress and its allies. It was in West Bengal where the popular discontent and revolutionary fervour of the masses was channelled into popular frontism by the so-called left parties. Today a big mass movement is developing against the betrayals of these parties and, in my opinion, West Bengal will be the place from where the spark or rather the flame of socialist revolution will begin to set the whole of India ablaze, and thus bring about a change in the social structure of the country.
What is the present situation of West Bengal, in other words the state of the peasantry, working class movement, etc.?
There is a very serious crisis facing capitalism in West Bengal and there is a general feeling which has pervaded virtually every strata which shows us that the people are simply not prepared to be oppressed any longer. From a revolutionary point of view the situation couldn't be more opportune. The capitalists are aware of this and they have started shifting their industries from West Bengal to "safer" parts of India. This withdrawal of capital symbolises the pre-revolutionary situation which exists in Bengal today. The leading Indian industrialist, Birla, recently stated that he preferred Bombay to Calcutta because the latter was a "hell'" as far as he was concerned. He is, of course, correct.
The lavel of political consciousness inside the working class is very high. They fight on the streets today on aff issues and not only their economic demands. Last December the jute mill workers came out on strike and the employers locked them out. This resulted in solidarity actions by all other workers and poor peasants. A General Strike was proposed in order to defend the jute workers. The central government capitulated before the strike could take place. Of course the working class movement is faced with certain problems. The level of unemploy. ment is constantly rising and at the moment the average rate of unemployment is 65% throughout the province in both the cities and the countryside. The second problem is the trade union bureaucrats who are by and large in the pay of the capitalists. These parasites have created in many areas an atmosphere of fear The Red Mole 16-28 Feb 1971 Page 8 Victims of the flood in East Bengal. and they are constantly victimising socialist and radical workers. They act openly as the Trojan horse of Indian capitalism. But despite the growing poverty and constant fear of unemployment, the workers refuse to be intimidated and are in the fighting line of the struggle.
As far as the peasantry is concerned, as you know throughout India 70% of the population is agricultural. In West Bengal the figure is slightly less. Between 60% and 62% of the population depends on agriculture. Because of the famine conditions in the countryside and the drought, even among the peasantry the largest grouping consists of what can only be described as a rural proletariat. This class owns nothing except the mud and straw huts and their eating utensils. These people are today prepared to fight and go the whole way to smash the existing structures and change the social relationships which exist in the country. side. Thus we see that the demand for seizing the land today becomes extremely popular. This demand in some places was so powerful that we have seen the Naxalite movement winning a great deal of support and forcing both the right-wing reformist Communist Parties to make a show to the people in their short-lived "land grabbing" exploits. But they failed miserably and no one was taken in, not even the right-wing press.
According to the law there are no landlords. But of course this is a complete farce because in India it is the unwritten laws which operate. On paper a landlord might only own 25 acres, which is the limit, but in practice he can own land under several fictitious names. But this type of landlord has more of an upper-class kulak mentality rather than that of an old feudal land lord (this is in Bengal, of course). So as far as the class structure of the Bengali countryside is concerned, you have the kulak-landlords on the top, and then you have the middle peasants, but they are also in a state of decay because of the poverty, unemployment and the famine. Virtually every alterate year brings us famine or drought. Even today we are living in famine conditions. From April to October the agricultural labourers will therefore have almost nothing to eat. They will have only one meal in 24 hours and that meal would surprise even the most ardent revolutionary living in the deve: loped capitalist centries. It consists of rice with salt and if they're lucky some cooked vegetables. The number of people who eat meat or fish is very limited. The agricultural labourers are on the lowest rung of the ladder. They comprise a large and growing majority and represent an extremely potent revolutionary force in the Bengali countryside. In any future struggle they will be a decisive component and that is why our comrades are working in the countryside and leading struggles.
Could you tell us something about these lake left parties which believe in electoral fronts What concrete results have thair capitulations had on the consciousness of the Bengali masses? The "left" parties were undoubtedly very popular because of their propaganda and agitation which was undoubtedly quite effective. But 1967 marks the great divide because it was in this year that these parties completely exposed themselves. Those same parties which had in the past fought for some of the demands of the people, when they came to power in 1967, their lust for power and their desire to hold office overshadowed everything else. They openly went over to collaboration with the capitalist class. In the years when they were in power they behaved like any bourgeois government. The people saw for themselves that nothing had changed. Corruption, high food prices, unemployment, disense all remained the same and in times like these even the most violent revolutionary rhetoric cannot mask the fact that the condition of the people remains unchanged. Despite all their big talk, they failed to arrest a single black-marketeer or property speculator. In 1969 when they came to power again there was yet another chance for them to mobilise the masses against the bourgeois state and expose the central state apparatus. Once again they failed miserably. They weren't even capable of implementing an existing law regardng the amount of land any one person was entitled to own, though they know full well that many landlords are defying or disregarding this law, which after all was framed by a capitalist government. The least the United Front government could have done-after all it included two parties which call themselves communist-was to implement this law. The only actions the two CPs could carry out was restricted to a mock occupation of Indira Ghandi and Birla's gardens. It could be that some of the CP leaders knew the geography of these gardens well as they are entertained there on certain occasions. These attempts to bluff the people have failed.
I think that these parties have ceased to be left parties in any meaningful sense of the word. They are working hand-in glove with the ruling Congress Party, with other parties like the Muslim League and in places even with semi-fascist parties like the Jan Sangh. These parties have become a part of the established order. Today in West Bengal there are only two existing revolutionary tendencies: the Maoists and the Trotskyists. These are the only currents whi oppose both the capitalists and the sham oppo sition of the "left" parties. Of course the Maoists are much better known than us because of the great weight of the Chinese Revolution, but don't be too deceived by appearances because in some parts of Bengal we are much stronger. You can ask any member of the repressive state apparatus in the district of Bankura who are the Trotskyists of the Fourth International. He will tell you. He knows because he and his friends have been trying to defeat us and have failed. Our comrades continue to occupy the land.
What is the attitude of the Trotskyist move mant in India towards the General Election?
You probably know that the Indian Constitution is the longest in the world. It has 395 Articles and innumerable clauses and appendices, eto., but this constitution or any other capitalist constitution is incapable of solving the problem which the country is now facing.
The number of elections is increasing both on a provincial and the central level. Looking at it from a purely practical point of view, it would be impossiblé for revolutionaries to participate because in India to participate in an election costs a lot of money and we are poor and all our funds are anyway put to better use. To run one candidate alone would cost us a minimum of Rs. 20,000 (E1,000 approx. on the black market exchange ratel. As you can see, no real revolutionary tendency would be able to spare that amount of money just for an election.
Of course, there is a more important and political side to the question. After all, a bour geois election is a hoax, a farce, particularly as far as we are concerned. The toiling masses of West Bengal have seen through this farce. Large numbers of workers and poor peasants today have no illusions about the elections. They have seen many elections. They and others like them, particularly the youth, feel that there is only one way and that is the way of revolutionary struggle. This atmosphere has been enhanced by the two revolutionary movements who operate there, namely the Maoists and the Trot skyists. And now our party, the Socialist Workers Party in Bengal, has decided from both a tactical and strategical point of view not to participate in the elections. This doesn't mean that we extend the slogan of boycott like the Naxalites have done to every sphere of life without any regard for the level of consciousness of the masses. We have also decided to use the election period to go to the masses and explain to them the meaning of the election and why we are not participating in it. What has been the role of the Naxa ites or rather the CPIM-L/ and what do you think their evolution is likely to be? Have they a future? The Naxalites or the Maoists could be in fact one of the biggest parties in India, but because of their adventurism and because of their inde. cision and because of the internecine battles which take place inside their leading bodies, they have not been able to build an all-India party. Already they have disintegrated into different factions and groups all claiming their right to the true heritage. There are about 30 small groups and 13 different newspapers in West Bengal alone. They're saying almost the same things. Same strategy, same Mao Tse Tung, same idnas. They are divided on the question of who is the real leadership. The main party of course is the CP IM-L). They had a strategy of going to the countryside to start an agrarian revolution and this they tried, but never on the basis of the class struggle in the particular locality or on the bases of the masses in that locality. They tried it on the basis of individual terror by killing individual landlords and indivi dual otedars in Bengal. They failed because they failed to understand the role the masses
uggle in Bengal play in any meaningful struggle and this despite all their "serve the people" propaganda. Their emphasis on individual terror brought upon their heads the entire might of the state and they suffered serious casualties. Many brave and heroic militants were killed. The repression has had a demoralising effect on many of their cadres and has caused some disintegration. / don't think that their future in that sense is very bright.
Only recently they have changed their strategy. They have left the rural sector, but alas, without a Red Army, and are now concentrating on the industrial sector. Here, too, they have a plan of individual terror which they proclaim quite openly. So far they have not been able to kill any big or leading industrialist. They have only executed some medium-size traders. They should know as well as anyone else that the laws of property mean that the dead man's bounty goes to his descendants and relatives or to the government. This property would never go to the people.
Another point on which we disagree with them is on their method of furthering the "cultural revolution" in India. They have started attacking colleges, schools and universi ties. They have ransacked and burnt many libraries containing extremely valuable books and manuscripts which would be of importance to any Marxist historian. They have even attempted to burn the entire library of Calcutta University where there are many books which are not available anywhere. The lunatic reasoning behind this is that Mao's writing is sufficient for everyone. You don't need to study anything else. This attitude has nothing in common with Marxism; it is in fact reminiscent of another ideology. They have also destroyed science laboratories in which useful apparatus has been destroyed and they also sometimes tend to kill teachers. Anyone who thinks I'm exaggerating should read the posters the Naxalites stick up all over the place in which they openly admit this. If anything I've underplayed some of their more "heroic" activities. In the name of the cultural revolution they have committed acts which would sadden the heart of any Marxist-Leninist who has read both Marx and Lenin. These acts serve no real purpose. They tend to lower the political prestige of the revolutionary moveforce in Bankura. For ten whole days the labourers didn't go to work. Despite the suffering they still refused to go. Finally their main demand was accepted. In this way our first strike was a success, Ief. The Red Mole, Vol.1, no. 11-Ed.) Then we decided that simply to stop at wage demands was to pander to econo mism and this was the last thing that the poor peasants needed. So we decided to go further. The next step was to seize the land, and we proceeded to do so. The capitalists said this was illegal, etc, but in fact it wasn't because in some cases the land didn't belong to the landlord and he was occupying it illegally. We explained this and the agricultural labourers seized the land as a class, as a mass aware of its rights and its place in history. We have occupied over 300 acres of land in three different localities, and the lands belong to either the government or to the landlords. While the seizures were taking place there was a clash between the landlords and the police on the one hand, and our comrades and their supporters on the other. But our numbers were so large that the rural authorities were frightened of a confrontation. The real crisis that we had to face was in November and December of last year. This is the harvesting period and the focal authorities were scared. So the local police station was reinforced; it was given a special wireless set and many other subsidiaries. Then semi-military forces were also brought to this area so that our movement, a new type of movement as far as India was concerned, could be halted. What was this movement and what was it engaged in doing? The land that we have occupied and which is well over 350 acres was not given to individual peasants. A committee known as the Collective Farming Committee" with an elected leadership of 21 people, all of whom are agricultural workers, runs the entire area. There is a chairman of this committee as well. This form of organisation is new to Bengal if not India. Most of the other groups and tendencies who seized the land gave it to their peasant supporters to cultivate. We Trotskyists refused to encourage, especially in a place like West Bengal, individual ownership. Land belongs to the collective and its committee organises collective cultivation, atc. While the amount of land we have seized and which is under our control is nothing compared to the We have one big agreement with them. Like us they are also opposing the capitalists and the whole role which the left parties so-called are playing in India. But there are some big differ ences also. For instance the Naxalites still believe in the bloe of four classes theoretically and they try and impose Mao's cult everywhere. They believe in individual terrorism and thus underrate the importance of the class struggle. We believe in Increasing the struggle, in mass terrorism. But in the struggle when we see that the Naxalites are being oppressed by the police, we help them in every possible way. In that sense they are comrades engaged in a similar struggle. Most of the Naxalite workers are sincere and honest militants who are dying for their ideals.
What is the importance of the national question in West Bengal, particularly bearing in mind the fact that in East Bengal (Pakistani it has acquired a phenomenal importance?
An anti-cholera poster in West Bengal. The biggest disease, however, is the bourgeoisie. Yes, it is important... but we cannot simply restrict it to that as we don't want to replace one oppressor with another. We have no real differences with East Bengal. We speak the same language, share the same culture, etc. The differences that exist have been fostered artifi cially, On its own, Bengal is a sizeable country with a population of over a hundred million. Therefore the only slogan we can give is that of a Socialist Bengal and that is the way we hope to develop consciousness on the national ques. tion.
Knowing as we do and understanding the tremendous impact which the Chinese revolu tion has had in Asia and ourselves being outside the Macist movement, do you think it will be possible in the near future to build a large sec tion of the Fourth International in India? Surely and certainly. I do not doubt it. What we lack and what both the orthodon Maoists and the pro-Moscow Stalinists possess is the backing of state power. In a country which is backward and a majority of whose people are illiterate like India today, simple propaganda in pictorial form or in films etc. on a large scale undoubtedly has a big impact. We, alas, do not as yet have the resources to match these efforts on our own. Our newspapers, etc., are very modest affairs compared to those of the pro-Moscow and pro Peking tendencies. Also the financial resources of these states enable them to maintain full-timers, get printing presses and the like.
However, we must not be pessimistic in the face of this. What is always decisive is politics, and even as Mao has said, politics must be in command. We agree. We say that the programme and the politics of the Indian Fourth Internatio nalists today are an extremely important weapon and we shall ensure that this weapon is used well. The existing political vacuum makes it all the more imperative for the Trotskyists to develop roots in the masses and thus lay the foundations of a revolutionary party. I think we are beginning to do this and therefore I can say with a certain amount of confidence that the Fourth International has a big future ahead of it in Indian. interviewer: G. Camiflo