A UPPER CLYDE If one worker sees leadership by example through one group of workers defending his right to work, he's going to say: "I'm being asked to kick them in the teeth and I'm a worker, I'm a worker too, why am I turning that off?" Same with the oxygen people, etc. The Tory Government have got to look at this and say-"Do you mean it?" And I'll tell you straight, we mean it. We're going to give them a showing up. We're not going to just capitulate. An hour ago we got a request from Holland. The Dutch workers want a speaker to go over there. You heard during the demo that the Dutch workers sent us their moral support, they sent financial assistance, they offered us food and clothes, they even said they would adopt our weans while we manned the barricades. Well, as far as I'm concerned, if the Dutch workers will do that, what the hell will the British ones do? The Tory government, in fact all the political parties, have got to look at this and start changing their view because we're not kidding. They can prattle on all they want as far as I'm concerned about gold reserves, but my education, my ability to use my hands, my native skills, are what builds this country and are the wealth of this country. The misuse of the wealth of this country is when I'm not working to better other people's conditions and to put up the standard of living. Just now they say our gold reserves are up-but unemployment's up too. Try to make that into any form of real economics that anyone can understand! It's my skill to do the job I'm doing, your skill to do the job you do, not the gold reserves, which are the real wealth of the country. -The occupation of UCS would raise the issues of workers' control very clearly?
That would be workers' control, wouldn't it? And the Government would have to say, well, this can snowball. Do they mean it? If they do, we've got a revolutionary situation on our hands. With unemployment growing, as far as I'm concerned they 'll have to watch-you'll get a revolutionary mood growing. But that isn't our first aim—our aims are the continuation of work for our members-if the other comes I might smile!
Would a Labour government do any better than a Tory government?
That depends what sort of a Labour government you have. I don't think the Labour government last time actually mirrored the views of the Labour Party members. But I think things like Wedgwood Benn's speech in the shipbuilding debate and the reception our boys got when they were down in London on the lobby is an indication that things are changing. This defeat's made them think again. I don't think the rank and file members controlled what was going on in the Party. What happened was that the Parliamentary Party went adrift from the views and desires and needs of its own party, thought it knew better because it was "serving the nation". But the nation is the working class movement, Party card holders or not, and I think we have to get around to this conception again. -What do you think of the statement by Jimmy Reid reported in Tribune on 27th June that "we are not in business to indulge political dogma either from the Right or the Left, we are in business to retain shipbuilding on the upper reaches of the Clyde"?
He's quite correct there that's our job. For instance, we'd a Labour M.P. in here this morning and he was on about nationalisation. We told him in no uncertain manner, "This isn't the important thing the important thing is to keep this industry because of the need of the working class of Scotland-not just for this one, but because of the chainreaction. At the moment we have one job to do and that's to save the industry." If this in itself poses all the questions, it isn't necessarily us as a group that have to answer them.